We. Are. Peoria (Area)

Tazewell wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:57 am

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:22 am The only "welfare" is a freeze on the local real-estate tax for a set period of time, often 5 years, after the investment is made.

You always say that, but that is not reality. The taxpayers are on the hook if the development fails which seems to happen more often than not. On top of that, TIFs give businesses in the TIF an advantage over those outside the TIF. That is corporate favoritism. Surely you're against that, right?

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:22 am Again, do you know how a TIF actually works?

Yes. I also know how and why they fail, something you can't seem to grasp.

You apparently still do not know how it works. A TIF simply freezes the real estate taxes at the predeveloped assessment.

Where's the corporate favoritism? Anyone is eligible to make the investment in the property.

The process to establish a TIF is a rigorous process and requires all of the local taxing bodies to sign on to it for Springfield to even approve it.

"Failure" is the same assessment as the pre- / non-development assessment.

Now if we are talking about other give aways & incentives, I might agree but under a pure TIF - no. I completely disagree.

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:14 am You apparently still do not know how it works. A TIF simply freezes the real estate taxes at the predeveloped assessment.

There is nothing simple about it. If it was so simple, there wouldn't be so many documented failures.

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:14 am Where's the corporate favoritism? Anyone is eligible to make the investment in the property.

If I own a business, and invested in a building and related infrastructure, then another competing business months or years later does the same thing, but in a TIF, you think that's fair?

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:14 am The process to establish a TIF is a rigorous process and requires all of the local taxing bodies to sign on to it for Springfield to even approve it.

The various taxing bodies are pressured into voting yes. The school boards especially. Or they are lured in by the promise of increased future revenue that so many times fails to materialize.

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:14 am "Failure" is the same assessment as the pre- / non-development assessment.

That's only true if no development work was done in a TIF before it expired. How many times has that happened?

Tazewell wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:33 am

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:14 am You apparently still do not know how it works. A TIF simply freezes the real estate taxes at the predeveloped assessment.

There is nothing simple about it. If it was so simple, there wouldn't be so many documented failures.

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:14 am Where's the corporate favoritism? Anyone is eligible to make the investment in the property.

If I own a business, and invested in a building and related infrastructure, then another competing business months or years later does the same thing, but in a TIF, you think that's fair?

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:14 am The process to establish a TIF is a rigorous process and requires all of the local taxing bodies to sign on to it for Springfield to even approve it.

The various taxing bodies are pressured into voting yes. The school boards especially. Or they are lured in by the promise of increased future revenue that so many times fails to materialize.

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:14 am "Failure" is the same assessment as the pre- / non-development assessment.

That's only true if no development work was done in a TIF before it expired. How many times has that happened?

No, no, no and no.

1) Example please, of a TIF failure and not a handout like iere Marquette.

2) These are largely done in areas of past development, where the redevelopment cost is more than green field construction. Business A had the same opportunity as B to make that decision.

3) Really, example please. Even the smallest taxing body can stop the whole works. The key question is how much in tax do they get from that property today, because there is NO reduction in the existing tax revenue with a TIF. Their only "loss" is the incremental difference between the pre and post development. Which isn't happening without the TIF.

4) and the impact is therefore none. Irrelevant.

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:37 am 1) Example please, of a TIF failure and not a handout like iere Marquette.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/report-t ... -promises/

https://www.lincolninst.edu/publication ... -do-better

https://www.lincolninst.edu/publication ... -costs-tif

Why did California, the first state to use TIFs, stop their use a few years ago?

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:37 am 2) These are largely done in areas of past development, where the redevelopment cost is more than green field construction. Business A had the same opportunity as B to make that decision.

Business A did the work on their own before the TIF was started. Your scenario is irrelevant.

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:37 am 3) Really, example please. Even the smallest taxing body can stop the whole works. The key question is how much in tax do they get from that property today, because there is NO reduction in the existing tax revenue with a TIF. Their only "loss" is the incremental difference between the pre and post development. Which isn't happening without the TIF.

https://goodjobsfirst.org/tif-causes-a- ... -missouri/

https://americansforprosperity.org/icym ... -district/

https://www.shawlocal.com/2016/03/22/ge ... s/aqyb4rx/

https://www.pjstar.com/story/news/2011/ ... 524515007/

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:37 am 4) and the impact is therefore none. Irrelevant.

You didn't answer my question. How many TIFs have had nothing done and no money spent for 23 years?

We've argued this subject so many times before, I've shown you all of the reasons that TIFs are detrimental, yet you persist in your opinion that they are good for society. I get that you personally benefit from TIFs and other taxpayer funded projects, but try to look past your bias for one second and admit they aren't as good as you think.

Tazewell wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:21 pm

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:37 am 1) Example please, of a TIF failure and not a handout like iere Marquette.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/report-t ... -promises/

https://www.lincolninst.edu/publication ... -do-better

https://www.lincolninst.edu/publication ... -costs-tif

Why did California, the first state to use TIFs, stop their use a few years ago?

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:37 am 2) These are largely done in areas of past development, where the redevelopment cost is more than green field construction. Business A had the same opportunity as B to make that decision.

Business A did the work on their own before the TIF was started. Your scenario is irrelevant.

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:37 am 3) Really, example please. Even the smallest taxing body can stop the whole works. The key question is how much in tax do they get from that property today, because there is NO reduction in the existing tax revenue with a TIF. Their only "loss" is the incremental difference between the pre and post development. Which isn't happening without the TIF.

https://goodjobsfirst.org/tif-causes-a- ... -missouri/

https://americansforprosperity.org/icym ... -district/

https://www.shawlocal.com/2016/03/22/ge ... s/aqyb4rx/

https://www.pjstar.com/story/news/2011/ ... 524515007/

RPlant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:37 am 4) and the impact is therefore none. Irrelevant.

You didn't answer my question. How many TIFs have had nothing done and no money spent for 23 years?

We've argued this subject so many times before, I've shown you all of the reasons that TIFs are detrimental, yet you persist in your opinion that they are good for society. I get that you personally benefit from TIFs and other taxpayer funded projects, but try to look past your bias for one second and admit they aren't as good as you think.

Congratulations, you posted multiple links to anti-government opinion pieces for a handful out of hundreds, if not thousands of TIFs.

No, I've never personally or professional benefited from a direct TIF project however I have seen many a small town without two nickels to rub together benefit from the formation of a TIF. The article from Chesterfield, Missouri is the school district grousing about them not receiving the incremental tax resulting from that development. Again, a formation that they approved in the first place,

Let's go back to Normal, the start of our story. How is an empty factory depriving the school district of revenue? Is the factory sending kids to their school? Employees are coming from miles around the area to work there. Even with employees from Normal, those employees live in a house that pays property tax - which helps to fund the school.

At best, the opinion piece from Illinois Policy dot Org claims that TIFs are nothing more than slush funds. Know what happens if the locals sit on that slush fund until the TIF expires? The remaining TIF funds are distributed back to the local taxing bodies at their respective taxing rate percentages.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water is just silly. Prosecute the underlying crime when it occurs. I suspect that a corrupt politician would find some of other source of public funds to abuse, regards of it being TIF, General Fund, ...

RPlant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:52 am Congratulations, you posted multiple links to anti-government opinion pieces for a handful out of hundreds, if not thousands of TIFs.

What you call anti-government is actually pro-taxpayer. Do you really expect me to find links to every failed TIF or ones where taxpayer money was misused by bureaucrats?

RPlant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:52 am No, I've never personally or professional benefited from a direct TIF project

I don't believe you.

RPlant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:52 am however I have seen many a small town without two nickels to rub together benefit from the formation of a TIF. The article from Chesterfield, Missouri is the school district grousing about them not receiving the incremental tax resulting from that development. Again, a formation that they approved in the first place,

Example of a small town that benefitted from a TIF?

So because a past Chesterfield school board approved the project, you're saying tough luck? That's your argument for TIFs in this case?

RPlant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:52 am Let's go back to Normal, the start of our story. How is an empty factory depriving the school district of revenue? Is the factory sending kids to their school? Employees are coming from miles around the area to work there. Even with employees from Normal, those employees live in a house that pays property tax - which helps to fund the school.

It sounds like this particular building was a great deal for whoever bought it even without the TIF incentives. Why not let the market work like it should? Why throw away years of tax revenue to entice development that would have happened on its own?

Those jobs and the people that come with it cost money in infrastructure, education, etc. That's fine if it happens slowly and organically. When it comes about by government manipulating the market, growth can be too fast. Then what happens when Rivian folds up, which is a real possibility?

RPlant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:52 am At best, the opinion piece from Illinois Policy dot Org claims that TIFs are nothing more than slush funds. Know what happens if the locals sit on that slush fund until the TIF expires? The remaining TIF funds are distributed back to the local taxing bodies at their respective taxing rate percentages.

When has a municipality ever given tax money back to citizens? If it has happened, it's certainly not a regular occurrence.

RPlant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:52 am Throwing the baby out with the bath water is just silly. Prosecute the underlying crime when it occurs. I suspect that a corrupt politician would find some of other source of public funds to abuse, regards of it being TIF, General Fund, ...

Many, if not most politicians involve themselves in at least some level of corruption. Very few actually put taxpayers first in their decision making.

When it comes down to it, TIFs (and other tax incentives) use taxpayer money for towns to compete against each other in a massive shell game instead of competing with each other on a level playing field.

You never answered my questions about California and the advantage given to one business over a competing business when TIFs are used.